Patrick Long at MSR 1.7 ccw, GT3 & GT3 Cup Car

[Mike CLK Black]

Ha! He's only 10 seconds faster than my best lap!

Oh wait, 10 seconds ..... right, I've got some work to do! :(

15240836


Okay, here he is in a Cup Car on a 1:14 pace!

I bet it's white knuckle time in the passenger seat at 1:14.
I'm probably better off cruising around in the high 1:20's!

15241236


Himself mentioned this track day in a picture thread recently, this is just video evidence of the awesomeness of that day.
Thanks to Facel Vega, hope he/she doesn't mind me pirating these vids to the DFWAC!

[himself]

Ha! He's only 10 seconds faster than my best lap!
[EDIT: check out Facel's video at ~3:00. Pat takes Ricochet driving with one hand, itching his back while passing a car on the inside. Pure awesomeness!]

Facel's car isn't a good comparison! It is set up to the gills! Fully adjustable shocks, high spring rates, full slicks and all the bells and whistles -- it's truly an awesome machine! His car, as set up, is only about 4 seconds slower than a 997 cup car. As for me, just like last year, my camera died right after Pat got in my car. I have some great shots of him getting buckled in, but only data. Of course, the data shows that Pat ran the exact same times, to the tenth of a second, as he did last year: 1:21.5. That's a pretty quick pace for a stock 6GT3 on non-sticker Hoosier R6s - and pretty consistent across a whole year! And, just like last year, I was about a second behind him. In the heat, I couldn't break into the 1:21s - just 1:22s and 23s. But, I'm perfectly happy being a second slower than one of the best drivers on the planet.




Himself mentioned this track day in a picture thread recently, this is just video evidence of the awesomeness of that day.
Thanks to Facel Vega, hope he/she doesn't mind me pirating these vids to the DFWAC!
At around 40 seconds into the second video, you see the 997 Cup passing a 996 Cup. And a just a few seconds later, you see 997 Cup passing Ferrari Challenge car. If there was more video, you would see it passing everyone, including me ;)

-td

[RaceMX-M3]

Very cool vids Mike, thx for posting. :)

[rberg32]

Awesome vids!

[Mike CLK Black]

.... But, I'm perfectly happy being a second slower than one of the best drivers on the planet.
....

LOL
I would be too but the smart money is betting against me!

[GTCole]

What kind of car is the first video, as I see it passes Randy's new cup car? And is the second video of him driving Randy's car on track? Interesting that he is turning 1:14's in a cup car. I thought they were faster since doing 1:20 in an RS.

[himself]

What kind of car is the first video, as I see it passes Randy's new cup car?
Facel's car is a 997.1 GT3. It didn't pass Randy's cup - no way it could even with Patrick driving. The car that was passed was a 996GT3 Cup. As setup that day, the 997.1GT3would probably run mid 1:17s [it ran 1:18s with traffic]. And times for this event were about a second slow due to blazing heat and a green track from all the rain. [In fact, back in Feb. I was running faster that Patrick by almost .3 seconds, but only because the conditions were better, so it's not apples to apples.]

Facel's car should run about the same times as your RS since your car has almost 30 HP on the 997.1 GT3, is a few pounds lighter, has improved chassis etc, but the 997.1GT3 has a little better suspension. Comes out almost equal in the wash. About 4-5 seconds off Cup car pace for the 1.7 sounds about right. Add another couple seconds for the 3.1, and a few more for TWS. You'll should be around to 4-5 seconds at ECR and Harris Hill.


And is the second video of him driving Randy's car on track? Nope. Second video is not Pat driving. car. The word is that the 997 Cup will pull 1:13s and maybe 1:12s with sticker tires.

I thought they were faster since doing 1:20 in an RS.
1:13 is blazing fast! And being 6-7 seconds slower than a car is an eternity! To put it in perspective, fast spec Miatas are running 1:25s and I bet you pass those like they are standing still. Add another 2 seconds on to that and that's how much faster a cup car is! Lapped in about 10 laps...

-td

[GTCole]

I agree with your comments. Thanks.

Ok, in all of that, you brought a huge question for me. Apparently you have a buddy with a 997.1 GT3 that is set up great. Not sure what that means, and would like to know. I am trying to trade my GT2 on a 997.1 GT3 and making the car a dedicated track car. Not even street legal. I'm trying to figure out what I can do to the car budget minded over time to get it to about 450 HP or a touch more.

[Silentrun]

I agree with your comments. Thanks.

Ok, in all of that, you brought a huge question for me. Apparently you have a buddy with a 997.1 GT3 that is set up great. Not sure what that means, and would like to know. I am trying to trade my GT2 on a 997.1 GT3 and making the car a dedicated track car. Not even street legal. I'm trying to figure out what I can do to the car budget minded over time to get it to about 450 HP or a touch more.

Keep the GT3RS...just my .02

[GTCole]

Keep the GT3RS...just my .02

Why and how long? I have a GT2 RS coming that is $266k. Wanna do the math?

[Silentrun]

My logic didn't include the 266K or the GT2RS...guess I am listening to Dave Ramsey too much.

[GTCole]

My logic didn't include the 266K or the GT2RS...guess I am listening to Dave Ramsey too much.

Listen better, cause you have that much in your red car.........

[Silentrun]

True, but I am keeping the car, just refinanced at 4.99% on 6 years...I will get it payed off in 4.

[GTCole]

True, but I am keeping the car, just refinanced at 4.99% on 6 years...I will get it payed off in 4.

How did you do that?

[citylightva]

True, but I am keeping the car, just refinanced at 4.99% on 6 years...I will get it payed off in 4.

Gotta love the rates these days :thumbsup2:

[UBR32]

True, but I am keeping the car, just refinanced at 4.99% on 6 years...I will get it payed off in 4.

And I bet your car payment is still more than my house payment :D

[Silentrun]

How did you do that?

Started with USAA then talked to the F&I guy at BW and said he could beat the rate, and he did.

Yes Brian, the car still costs more than the house per month, but a lot better then before the refinance.:thumbsup2:

[GTCole]

Started with USAA then talked to the F&I guy at BW and said he could beat the rate, and he did.

Yes Brian, the car still costs more than the house per month, but a lot better then before the refinance.:thumbsup2:

Interesting.

[himself]

I agree with your comments. Thanks.

Ok, in all of that, you brought a huge question for me. Apparently you have a buddy with a 997.1 GT3 that is set up great. Not sure what that means, and would like to know. I am trying to trade my GT2 on a 997.1 GT3 and making the car a dedicated track car. Not even street legal. I'm trying to figure out what I can do to the car budget minded over time to get it to about 450 HP or a touch more.
Sorry for the delay - been crazy at work lately!

A "budget" for turning a street GT3 into a track only car may be right around $10-15K to do "just enough" and probably $25K+ to get right. If you tossed 30K at it, you would have one hell of a track beast. Probably close to a cup car, without a sequential shifter.

"Just enough" means (at least) upgrading: suspension, some bushings, rear toe links with bump steer, and getting lightweight wheels. That should set you back around $15,000 or so. If you have some left over, you can get a new splitter and replace the rear sway bar. If you get some used wheels, you can reflash your ECU.

After that, you'll start chasing fractions of a second with piles of money. Everything solid, blade sway bars, high flow exhaust, lightweight flywheel, ECU flash, 2-piece rotors, regaering, cup shifter cables, engine mounts, and the list goes on and on. The cheap thing to do is put your car on a diet!

Don't forget that safety equipment is not included in the pricing, but it really isn't that much comparatively [roll bar, harnesses, seats, HANS, firesuit, fire system - and maybe a cool suit.]

As for costs you are looking at between $5,000 - $15,000 for a suspension [not including install - or recoup for resellilng your old stuff]. The good stuff is made by Moton. Their motorsport double adjustable shocks will run you around $8,000 [no springs included]. 3-way adjustable, about $10K, and 4-way are around $15K [but would be a bit overkill unless you are a setup guru or have one handy. A good compromise solution is their clubsport edition for around $5,000 [2-way adjustable]. Springs are relatively cheap. Some run 600/800, or 800/1000, or some other variation, but it really depends on the track and type of tires you want to run. If you can justify it, the 3-ways are probably the way to go. AMny folks that like the third [low speed compression] setting.

Toe links with bump steer and solid bushings all the way around, maybe another $3-5K.

Blade sway bar is around $1500K [per axle].

Lightweight wheels, around $5,000 [cheaper if you get used ones]. Also, 997.1 uses 5 lug which will be a little cheaper than centerlock. And 18" wheels will get you cheaper tires as well.

IMO, you would be better off ditching all of these grand ideas, and putting your money into a spec boxster. Learn to drive that thing fast, dice it up with the PCA folks and have a blast in a "cheap" car. My next time around, that's what I'm gonna do!

-td

[Greg S]

OR you could just spend $25k and have your own track/race car.
http://www.dfwautoclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=42273#post42273

[GTCole]

I'm getting a spec boxster. It looks too much fun and is budget minded. Not sure when. My only problem being I'm used to gobs of HP. Cup car racing is a little out of hand expense wise. I think Tiger Woods spent less on chics.

[OKcruising]

What times was the yellow ZR1 turning at this event?

[himself]

What times was the yellow ZR1 turning at this event?
I don't know if Pat drove it. I assume that it would run sub 1:20 pretty easily, probably closer to 1:16 or a hair faster.

-td

[OKcruising]

I don't know if Pat drove it. I assume that it would run sub 1:20 pretty easily, probably closer to 1:16 or a hair faster.

-td


Ahh. I didn't get a chance to stay on track long enough as I wanted to pace the ZR1 to see how they perform.

[Fubar]

I'm getting a spec boxster. It looks too much fun and is budget minded. Not sure when. My only problem being I'm used to gobs of HP. Cup car racing is a little out of hand expense wise. I think Tiger Woods spent less on chics.

I with you, I can't afford this hobby anymore. Sherman is the only guy with a bottomless checking account. :whistle:

[GTCole]

I with you, I can't afford this hobby anymore. Sherman is the only guy with a bottomless checking account. :whistle:

NS. Everytime I hear from him he has new wheels, seats, cages, tuning, turbos, personal lessons, and on and on. He could have bought my GT2 twice and been better off.

[Brett]

I with you, I can't afford this hobby anymore. Sherman is the only guy with a bottomless checking account. :whistle:

Obviously you do, but does this Sherman individual come to the Saturday meets? In being more active I want to try and put some names to faces... next time I come around to Dallas.



Also, CC08GT2 do you go to the Sat. meets?

[GTCole]

Obviously you do, but does this Sherman individual come to the Saturday meets? In being more active I want to try and put some names to faces... next time I come around to Dallas.



Also, CC08GT2 do you go to the Sat. meets?

Nope. Live on a ranch south of Maypearl, TX. Don't get to Frisco unless I'm lost.

[Silentrun]

Obviously you do, but does this Sherman individual come to the Saturday meets? In being more active I want to try and put some names to faces... next time I come around to Dallas.



Also, CC08GT2 do you go to the Sat. meets?

It has been awhile...

[Silentrun]

NS. Everytime I hear from him he has new wheels, seats, cages, tuning, turbos, personal lessons, and on and on. He could have bought my GT2 twice and been better off.

This from the guy who has every current model of Porsche and more on the way:)

[Silentrun]

I with you, I can't afford this hobby anymore. Sherman is the only guy with a bottomless checking account. :whistle:

Want to buy my .50? :thumbsup2:

[GTCole]

This from the guy who has every current model of Porsche and more on the way:)

No longer. That's gonna change. Don't need that anymore.

[Flat6]

in this months Excellence, Patrick tells the writer riding along with him on a twisty alpine road in Norcal (who had earlier mentioned while following Patrick in a second car that he wasnt comfortable with Patrick's pace and had to fall behind) that "if he wants to get to the next level, he has to learn to trust the grip". Trust the grip and and trust that the car is going to go where you want it to."

i know my lap times would improve if i had a little more trust ;)

[GTCole]

^Actually he is right, but you also need to know where the grip ends. A few times in that mode and you learn the "grip" to trust.

[Brett]

^Actually he is right, but you also need to know where the grip ends. A few times in that mode and you learn the "grip" to trust.

Heh. Definitely. More than a few times I've had a little too much "trust" and wound up having to pull grass from my radiator for an hour. :(

Trust is good but you need to work up to it.

[Fubar]

The only way to find the limit, is to go past it and then you will know, it was right back there.

[Silentrun]

Friction Circle!!!!

[Silentrun]

Check out video at bottom of page...

http://www.lizardms.com/index.htm

[GTCole]

The only thing about Long is that he can go to the edge of the grip circle and play at the line. I think most of us blaze right thru the edge of the circle to "spin out" land.

[GTCole]

Check out video at bottom of page...

http://www.lizardms.com/index.htm

This win was big because the Ferrari and Vette were on their heels the whole time. Great win.

[OKcruising]

The only way to find the limit, is to go past it and then you will know, it was right back there.

x100 Truth.

[himself]

I suppose this is a perfect time to post up a preview of a presentation I've been meaning to finish up on the dynamics of traction to help my students out. It's still a work in progress, but most of the heavy lifting is done. I got assistance on this from Larry Herman, who has a great understanding of these concepts and has worked up similar materials on these points.

Feel free to let me know if you have any questions/comments on this - including if it reads OK, if is too hard to follow, or if anything needs further elaboration.

PRESENTATION ON GRIP
You hear a lot of people talk about the traction circle, grip, slip, under/over the limit, etc. when talking about track driving. Of course, everyone understands that the only thing keeping you on the road is your tires. The simple equation is "more grip equals faster lap times." But many drivers are not getting the full potential out of their tires for their platform. Overlaying comparative data with better drivers in your car is one data point, but you can also get a comparative range for your platform by reviewing data, track records, video, etc. One problem is that are only a few descriptions out there for intermediate and advanced drivers to review to really grasp what is going on with their tires. And those may be too complicated to understand or too simple to be of value.

SLIP ANGLE
The first thing to understand is they way a tire generates force (i.e., grip). When a tire is turned left or right, the rubber at the contact patch deforms and generates force in the direction the wheel is pointed. But, the car doesn’t actually turn the same amount – instead it turns a little less than the wheel is turned. That is, where you point the tire is [generally] always more than the actual path the car takes. For example, if you have your steering wheel turned 10 degrees to the left [which we will assume equates to your tire pointing 10 degrees to the left], your car may actually only turning 4 degrees to the left, thus, you have 6 degrees of slip angle.

http://td873.enteronline.net/instruction/slip_angle.jpg

Tires generate more force (grip) as more slip angle is added, up to a certain point. That is, a tire only has so much grip.

GRIP
This can be illustrated graphically as shown below. This graph is fairly accurate for all tires [street, R-comp, or slick] but the slip angle will be different.

http://td873.enteronline.net/instruction/td_grip_graph.jpg

In this graph, force is shown on the vertical axis. The horizontal axis represents slip. As shown, as slip increases so does grip – but only up to a point. After the tire reaches its maximum grip it starts to taper off. But, contrary to what most believe, no tire just drops completely off. Grip may be substantially reduced, but it never goes to zero. The reason many say the tire just gave out is probably due to one end of the car losing some grip, which unbalances the car and results in a spin. For example, if all of the tires are at 1.0 G, but then the rear tires drop to .8 Gs, you have a car with pretty serious oversteer.

The Yellow line represents something we can refer to as “driving on grip.” It is most often manifested by steering the car with the steering wheel [or front end of the car] only. There are very few corrections at corner entry, mid-corner or corner exit. The car is on rails the entire time. Most people drive on grip and never realize that they are doing it, or that there is more grip to be had.

The Green portion represents “driving on slip.” This is manifested by steering the car with your feet or driving with the back end of the car [not to be confused with turning the car, which is done with the steering wheel]. There are many corrections in a corner with the brake (trail braking), gas (trailing throttle oversteer) and steering wheel (progressive countersteer to counteract excessive mid-corner or exit yaw). The tires have reached their maximum force and it is difficult to balance traction at all 4 corners at the same time. Because this section is so small, it is very difficult to maintain this level of grip in all corners all the time. As a reference point, using trailing throttle oversteer (throttle steering) in some corners is approaching the threshold from yellow into green. Rotating under braking [trail braking] and light countersteering under throttle at corner exit are indicative of actually moving into the green zone. Maximizing grip typically requires balancing the car in each corner by using throttle/brake/steering corrections. Balancing the car should not be confused with “catching” a car in a corner, which is more indicative of rapid traction disparity requiring immediate and quick correction – often referred to as not driving smoothly.

The Red portion represents exceeding the tire’s maximum grip. As shown, the tire still generates substantial grip, but the tire is now at a slip angle that may be chewing away rubber rather than simply turning the car. It is possible to go from the yellow line to the red line almost instantaneously bypassing the green line. Most often, only one end of the car is in the red zone. Without a good skill set, this type of grip disparity often ends in a spin.

As alluded to above, one common misconception is that lifting in a corner automatically pushes the tire into the red section. Although this may be the case, many spins due to lifting in corner are due to excessive grip differential between the front and rear. That is, a driver may be completely in the yellow section [say .8 Gs at all 4 tires] but then lift in a corner. At this point weight is transferred to the front or the car, which may push the front tires to the far end of the green section [say 1.0G] while the rear tires fall to .6G at the same time. At this point, the car has a tendency to oversteer. If the driver does not immediately [and quickly] correct this with countersteer (and gas) the rear tires will continue to add slip angle and ultimately will shoot into the red area.

PRACTICAL EFFECTS
In sum, every tire will have a window where there is maximum grip. However, most never get over the proverbial hump and learn to drive on slip. One reason for this is that many believe that driving on slip is actually driving “over the limit.” When a small correction is needed, they believe they have exceeded the tire’s grip capacity and then drive below that grip level. On the graph, this would actually be crossing the threshold into green, but then pulling back. A car driven at the limit will need correction in almost every corner. Another way to gauge where you are driving is by looking at your lap times. If you are about 2 seconds (or more) slower per lap than the track record for your platform, you are probably not driving on slip. If you are 1 second off pace, you are probably driving on slip most of the time, but not getting everything you can out of the car. [Generally, this equates to time lost on corner entry due to trail braking technique].

DIFFERENT TIRES
The second graph is a generic representation of grip levels between different tire compounds. The black line represents street tires, which typically generate under 1.0 G of force. R-compound tires [e.g., Hoosier R6s, Nitto R888, Toyo RA1, etc] are represented by the blue line and typically generate under 1.2Gs. Slicks, shown in green, generate around 1.4Gs. These numbers may vary based on actual compound.

http://td873.enteronline.net/instruction/slip_v_force_tires.jpg

There are two things to note: (1) each tire has a maximum grip level based on slip angle, and (2) each tire still has a point where driving on slip beings. Interpreting this graph illustrates that street tires have a large margin for error – even when driving on slip. They provide plenty of warning that the car is getting to the limit, and there is a large window of grip before traction starts to fall off on the back side. Put differently, there is a large margin of steering input and speed to play with before grip starts to fade. As shown, even if you add a little too much steering, the slip angle window is almost 2 degrees wide where roughly the same amount of grip is generates.

Many people switch over to R-compound tires before they actually master driving on slip with street tires. Because of this, they do not have those skills to apply when using stickier tires. Although ultimate lap times decrease, there is still much time left on the table. Also, the nature of R-compound tires is that less steering angle is needed to generate maximum force and the window for this force is substantially reduced. There is much less margin for error, so it is harder to get to the maximum and stay there. The actual amount of slip angle varies by tire manufacturer. Driving at the maximum with the lowest slip angle is generally the best.

With slicks, the grip levels are very high and the car’s reactions to input are very fast. Feedback is subtle and the window for maximum grip is very small. Because the window is so small, it is hard to find but easy to overshoot. Driving slicks to their maximum requires a level of talent and feel that most drivers will never acquire.

Conclusion
Driving any car close to its maximum is very difficult and equally rewarding. Pushing towards the evelope is not easy and requires dedication and patience. If you have gotten to a point where your lap times have plateaued but you know that there is more in the car, it may be time to get an advanced instructor in your car to get you over the hump.

[toedrag]

^^well said. I also recommend Speed Secrets by Ross Bentley. I'm re-reading it a 3rd time in preparation of an upcoming HPDE event, and I'm still picking up new information.

It's unfortunate that so many people upgrade their vehicles before acquiring the talent to match.

Lesson: Keep your car stock until you've mastered threshold braking, weight transer/neutral steering, optimum slip angle for all 4 tires, etc (notice how I didn't say lap times or speed). Then, upgrade safety items if you haven't done so already, and only after that begin performance upgrades. Change one item at a time and then re-learn the car.

[GTCole]

I like it too. It would be too confusing to throw in the "downforce" of a car and how it aides the grip. I have exerienced that in driving a GT2 and then driving a GT3 RS. Huge difference to the equation.

[Silentrun]

For me, as I approach DE's with a little more knowledge and speed, its just how far am I going to push my "fun car" as it is not a dedicated "track" car...never will be. It's sort of a built-in limiting factor until I can get a beast to push to that limit.

In the mean time it's all simulated on Iracing...

[GTCole]

I can't wait to see you eat up the track on the 18th. Suck it up and go to the DE.

[Silentrun]

Oh, I will be at that DE...and in a couple places be in the "green"

[GTCole]

Oh, I will be at that DE...and in a couple places be in the "green"

I thought you said you couldn't do the DE? Just Steve's Monday deal. Something about your wife and your gonads in her hand.

You aren't registered. It closes soon.

[Silentrun]

I will be at Steve's Monday DE...not the PCA event. The wife and I only have one good DE left in the Cups.

[GTCole]

Buy more tires. It's nothing.
You should come see us at the DE.

[OKcruising]

Himself,

That's pretty much a nice lil summary of what I've seen in some of my textbooks, minus a whole bunch of crazy math. Good post.